The Time is NOW!

[Thunderbird]

I am not going to say that these ideas won't work but let me give you some of the realistic obstacles.

Staged tournaments - We ran these a couple off times a year in New Mexico. They work great with 16 man brackets but do not work with round robin or very small brackets because of time between matches. There are no rookie/novice in NM so the brackets are larger. In Texas, there are so many brackets that you just don't have the numbers.

Facilities - In Texas, the facilities are expensive and getting more expensive. It is hard to put on a small tournament without losing money. Local ISD's are taking advantage of the demand from youth sports (including volleyball and basketball also) and charging more and more for the facilities. I never had a facility fee to worry about in NM. Each high school had a youth program.

Breaking up tournaments - I would support looking into this in the future. However, you get back to the problem of too many brackets. If there are only 4 kids in a bracket now, when you split you have less.

It is a great idea to look at other states and programs. That is important for the growth but Texas does present some unique obstacles to some of the traditional ways to grow the sport. Again, I am not dismissing any of these suggestions but I am offering a different view.

[Hoddy]

Thunderbird, "this isnt New Mexico" LOL kidding! I just wanted to throw that in since I get "this aint Oklahoma" or "If you dont like it go to Oklahoma" every time I bring up Oklahoma vs. TX wrestling on the other forum.

The time between matches really doesnt matter though. At the grappling tourneys we have 6-10 minute long matches. More than once I have grappled for 6 minutes, then had a 5 minute break or less and was at it for another 6 minutes straight with my next opponent. And I'm old, you cant tell me kids couldnt handle 5 minutes between matches. Even if it was smaller brackets, you could combine two brackets to a mat at once. That should give plenty of break between matches. Run those through until bracket is complete. Also helps the kids stay warm and more focused since they are not waiting hours between matches. Great thing is you could have a schedule of what time each bracket will be called to the mat. That way no sitting around all day for parents not knowing when junior will be up!

[jmart2663]

Excellent!

These are great ideas. Steelfrog, cwilson, Thunderbird you all seem to have some great insight into how things are handled in other states and how to apply that knowledge to improve things in Texas. Perhaps we could flesh out some of these things to develop an action plan or a presentation to the powers that be here in Texas.
Hoddy I spoke with you about some of your idea in Allen this weekend. I think these types of things can be developed and applied to the way tournaments are currently ran.
Jagfan101 I think it is the growth of youth wrestling that will eventually lead to middle school wrestling. They started middle school wrestling in Keller last year. Allen has a middle school program and I know a proposal has been submitted to the Lewisville Independent school district. Baseball is a growing and thriving sport that is not played in middle school, at least as far as I know, but basketball, football, cross country, volleyball, and many other sports are played in middle school. Texas has as much if not more venue infrastructure than neighboring states such as Oklahoma or New Mexico and Texas clubs do pay for all the venues they use. Most youth clubs practice at HS or Middle school gyms and use those mats. You are right HS coaches do have full plates but we need them to be a part of growing the sport especially at the Middle school level. Without them I just don't think Middle school wrestling is a possibility!

Jerry Martin

[usa66kg]

Well boys, being my first year coaching at tournaments in Texas, I have to say I have been dissapointed. Im one of the "in Oklahoma" guys that doesnt understand why you wouldnt try and duplicate what works. This is my first year so im not trying to act like I know everything, but theres a couple questions I have that maybe someone can answer. 1. Why are novice and open tournaments ran togather? I know if they were seperated, we would all be home by 3-4 every Saturday. 2. Changing weights shouldnt even be an option. Ill be the first to admit ive had parents on my own team call me after Ive entered names and it irritates me. I feel if they dont make the weight they dont compete....you dont get that option in highschool...college...etc.. 3. If venues are such an issue, could it be possible to use the fairgrounds everyweekend with different clubs who run the tournament making the money? Is it not possible to find venues to have a novice and open tournament the same weekend? If not run the novice in the AM and open in the afternoon. There only needs to be two divisions in my opinion novice and open. Sheltering kids from getting beat so they can get a medal or so they wont quit is beyond me. They will not get better wrestling lesser competion, in fact we enable them in thinking they want to continue to wrestle novice because its easier. These are some of the things I have come to question so far...maybe someone can paint a better picture for me.

Jamill

[Thunderbird]

I believe there should only be 2 divisions as well but I think a rookie and open. I argued against the novice. We were able to get rid of it for a year but that is it. I argued that sheltering kids in Rookie/Novice divisions actually worked against the kids. I have seen kids not make it in novice and then quit saying if they can't win in novice they have no chance in open. When in reality most novice wrestlers can hang with the open wrestlers. As for changing weights, tournament directors generally like to help all the kids wrestle so it is hard to say no. We all need to realize that accomodating those 5 wrestlers are holding up the 700 that made weight. Coaches need to be able to say no their wrestlers as well. This weekend we will not rebracket open wrestlers. They should know better. As far as venues go, Fair Park is not that cheap compared to some venues. Clubs also do not get the concessions which takes some incentive out. A strong relationship with the high school wrestling coach helps facilitate the venues.

[jmart2663]

Several people have suggested and offered valuable viewpoints on some of the issues regarding tournaments and how they are currently ran. Clearly venues are an issue but only in some instances it would seem. The Allen tournament has been at the same venue for at least the last 3 years that I am aware of. We could probably assume that the youth club has a close relationship with the HS coach over there which allows them to use that building year in and year out.
How can we address the issues brought up concerning rookie/novice and holding rookie/novice tournaments and open tournaments at different venues or at different times? Steelfrog made the point that Oklahoma has 2-5 tournaments on any given weekend, well we have that in Texas as well. Isn't there generally a tournament in the El Paso, Amarillo, Houston/Austin and DFW regions every weekend? The question is how can a blueprint be established that is easy to implement that allows for faster more efficiently run tournaments week in and week out?
Can Rookie/Novice tournaments be held at different locations form Open tournaments? It would seem that is done to some extent in Oklahoma but I have seen them held at the same location but different times. Is that feasible here in Texas? In the North region? What is the process by which these ideas could be tested on a small scale to ascertain their effectiveness?
Hoddy brought up a great idea pertaining to weigh ins. Could we have each contestant weigh in at the mat before their first match? If they make weight they wrestle, if not they are scratched.
Is there the need for more scales to be purchased? Can TXUSA invest in scales? Should they? Would that help weigh ins as they are now run more smoothly?
I understand where Thunderbird is coming from concerning kids who bust weight. Tournament directors WANT the kids to wrestle so they try and do whatever they can to let everyone wrestle but WHAT are we teaching the kids? In HS if they bust weight they CANNOT wrestle simple as that.
66kg makes some great points and I am astounded that his advice and counsel would not be sought out. This guy is an American hero, an Olympian who has wrestled at every level including the most elite surely his insight and experience could be used to improve the way tournaments are ran!

Thunderbird I am not aware of the economics of running a tournament, although I plan to take a crash course next year. If a venue costs $1200.00, I simply pulled this number out of the air, than a tournament would need 92.31 wrestlers to pay for the venue. Obviously you have ref's to pay for as well as awards which cost roughly what? If you have 6 mats and 8 refs, you pay each ref $125.00 per day that would be $1000.00. If the tournament had at least 4 wrestlers in every division (276 wrestlers), tot thru D5, and every weight in those divisions you would need 276 medals @ $5.00 per medal would be $1380.00. Grand total for my hypothetical tournament is $3580.00. At $13.00 per wrestler you would have to draw 275.46 wrestlers to break even. Lets see Grappler's kickoff had 206, they lost money, Winter Storm had 497, they made money and Allen had close to 700 so they made even more money. At the Grappler's kickoff they turned people away because they didn't enter properly, which was the right thing to do, at Winter Storm the tournament didn't start until approximately 11:00, I think I got in my truck to go home at about 8:30 that night, so they could re bracket. Reason being, one of the clubs entered their wrestlers based on last years weights and they were all wrong. Allen tournament went off without a hitch as far as I know, although they were recruiting table workers, I left the tournament after the last match was wrestled at approximately 6:30.
I went to Panhandle this year and got out of there at about 8:00 after my kid's 2nd loss. Not sure what time they finished up but the tournament was far from over. Went to a tournament in Oklahoma earlier this year. They had about 50 no shows and completely re bracketed the tournament. It was supposed to start at 9 and it started around 10:30. We were back home in Flower Mound, a 2 1/2 hour drive at about 6:00 PM. I believe there were approximately 300 kids at that tournament. They had 4 mats and 8 matches going on at a time, the table workers on our mat had a little trouble but they worked through it.

Here's the point:
This isn't rocket science. There are economics, personalities, venues, and all sorts of things that are part of running a tournament. Generally speaking it would seem, based on anecdotal evidence, that tournaments in Texas are not run very efficiently but it isn't for lack of effort, possibly a lack of planning and forethought but not effort.
It is impossible for me to believe that good people can't get together and figure out a more efficient, smarter way to run a tournament.
Can we not establish a Tournament Planning committee in the North region to explore and develop just that?
Can we not utilize the years of experience we have at our disposal to help facilitate a positive change?

I read on the youth forum at the TXUSA site where Louie Martinez said, "I believe the biggest problem with TXUSA Wrestling is we try to enforce rules or changes without properly thinking them out." I would really like to join in that discussion but for whatever reason I can't post over there. If what he says is indeed the case don't we have a responsibility to begin to change that by planning better and thinking things out more thoroughly? I would like to be a part of that, I think this discussion and the one at the youth site show that other people would like to be a part of that. I believe that there are people involved in THIS discussion who have the ability to bring these folks into the discussion and utilize their experience and desire to help to improve TXUSA wrestling for everyone. Let's get started, no time like the present!

Jerry Martin

[Hammer44]

All very good suggestions.

The Allen youth club does have a very good relationship with Coach Best. Even with this, facility reservation for the Allen TOC has always been dicey. A couple of years ago, we had to switch dates with Frisco because the tournament got bumped for a school function. I believe we need to find a central location for DFW tournaments. Surely, there's some parents in commercial real estate that could help find a vacant facility to house 8-10 mats to be used year round for freestyle/folkstyle/greco tournaments and camps.

Concerning the revenue generated at local tournaments, your math is generally correct. However, the local clubs only get $6 of the $13. The region and state gets the rest, I believe. Now, you will need approximately 600 wrestlers to break even. There's other ways of generating additional income such as charging admission, selling brackets, dit and dots. Also, Allen's Takedown Booster club runs concessions at all Allen TOC's. The youth parents donated all of the bottled drinks that were bought. The proceeds were given directly back the youth club and the booster club gets paid on running the concession stand. A win-win situation for everyone. This past off-season, the youth club bought a new mat and clock. This next year, they will be buying another scale and clock. The old mats are being used by Allen's MS programs at Ereckson and Curtis.

The McKinney Mat Rats have been hosting youth dual tournaments during the weekdays for a couple of years. It's a great way of getting the rookie/novice kids 2-3 matches in a couple hour period. On December 27, they are hosting a dual tournament where 6-8 teams will compete. For more information, you should try to track down either Paul Mitchell or Paul Dauterive at this weekend's Frisco tournament.

Also, talk to your local high school coaches about trying to set up a youth dual before a HS dual. Allen has done this over the last 3 years with Frisco, McKinney and HP. It's a great opportunity for the youth to learn what a dual format is all about and to watch and support the high school teams.

[mama2boty]

The "new" wrestling parents need to realize that wrestling is not basketball - you can't show up for 1 hour, sit in the bleachers, and watch your kid play a sport that only requires two refs and two coaches. It takes a lot more parent committment and participation than that. If you, as a parent, aren't willing to do that then have your kid play basketball.

Parents and coaches need to be responsible for checking the online entries on Friday morning as soon as they go live on the website to make sure their wrestlers are entered correctly. If they are not, the time to request changes to the host tournament is Friday mid-day (or a time designated by the host tournament). Friday night at weigh ins and Saturday morning are NOT the time to ask for changes to be made -- brackets are already being made, bout sheets printed, etc, etc. Frisco's are up right now -- go check them out and contact your coach so they can contact the host tournament with errors.

Also, wrestlers need to know which Division / R/N or Open / Weight they are enter as when they show up for weigh ins. I can tell you that the majority of wrestlers that weighed in at Allen didn't know this information so we had to search for it -- ask them how old they are, how much they weigh, etc. Granted, now we know that we should have had an alphabetical list of wrestlers instead of breaking it out by Division, etc. This year is going to be a learning curve with the new mandatory weigh ins for every tournament. However, we are three tournaments into the season and I am hopefull that the steps Frisco is taking will lead to an easier time tonight and tomorrow morning. I think every tournament will get better in this area -- just need clubs to communicate with each other what did or did not work at their weigh ins. Frisco, have an alphabetical list of entries to make the searching go faster. And parents / wrestlers, know what your child is entered for -- and let your coach know Friday during the day if you see an error online.

I checked and there are 38 teams listed online for the North Region. Out of that 7-8 have stepped up to host a tournament (not counting who will do regionals and other things that aren't listed yet). So, that leaves about 30 teams. I think it should be mandatory for these teams to work a table at every tournament in their region! If you are a small team join up with another small team and take a a table - both morning and afternoon session. If we only have 10 to 12 mats to run then you wouldn't even have to work every tournament or only assign them a morning or afternoon table instead of all day. Then the host team can use their people they would normally assign to work the tables to do other jobs - weigh ins, entry door, coaches hospitality, bracket sales, awards table, table worker relief, etc. etc. Also, I think if you host a tournament it should exempt you from having to work a table at the other tournaments in your area. So, Storm, Allen, Frisco, Titans, Wylie, etc. wouldn't have to work tables at their own tournament or other North Region Tournaments -- the other 30 teams that haven't/can't make the committment to run a tournament would be required to run the tables. Even if we made this a requirement I am sure you would still see the tournament host teams stepping up during other tournaments to help out.

I see the same people tournament after tournament working the tables, etc. and the same people tournament after tournament sitting on their butts in the stands watching. "New" and "Old" wresting parents that don't volunteer need to figure out that this sport requires a lot of parent involvement and committment. The coaches work hard all day long to coach their teams -- the parents need to start stepping up -- or have your kid play a different sport next year. If you can complain about things not starting on time, etc. then you can volunteer and try to help!

[jmart2663]

The "new" wrestling parents need to realize that wrestling is not basketball - you can't show up for 1 hour, sit in the bleachers, and watch your kid play a sport that only requires two refs and two coaches. It takes a lot more parent committment and participation than that. If you, as a parent, aren't willing to do that then have your kid play basketball.

Parents and coaches need to be responsible for checking the online entries on Friday morning as soon as they go live on the website to make sure their wrestlers are entered correctly. If they are not, the time to request changes to the host tournament is Friday mid-day (or a time designated by the host tournament). Friday night at weigh ins and Saturday morning are NOT the time to ask for changes to be made -- brackets are already being made, bout sheets printed, etc, etc. Frisco's are up right now -- go check them out and contact your coach so they can contact the host tournament with errors.

Also, wrestlers need to know which Division / R/N or Open / Weight they are enter as when they show up for weigh ins. I can tell you that the majority of wrestlers that weighed in at Allen didn't know this information so we had to search for it -- ask them how old they are, how much they weigh, etc. Granted, now we know that we should have had an alphabetical list of wrestlers instead of breaking it out by Division, etc. This year is going to be a learning curve with the new mandatory weigh ins for every tournament. However, we are three tournaments into the season and I am hopefull that the steps Frisco is taking will lead to an easier time tonight and tomorrow morning. I think every tournament will get better in this area -- just need clubs to communicate with each other what did or did not work at their weigh ins. Frisco, have an alphabetical list of entries to make the searching go faster. And parents / wrestlers, know what your child is entered for -- and let your coach know Friday during the day if you see an error online.

I checked and there are 38 teams listed online for the North Region. Out of that 7-8 have stepped up to host a tournament (not counting who will do regionals and other things that aren't listed yet). So, that leaves about 30 teams. I think it should be mandatory for these teams to work a table at every tournament in their region! If you are a small team join up with another small team and take a a table - both morning and afternoon session. If we only have 10 to 12 mats to run then you wouldn't even have to work every tournament or only assign them a morning or afternoon table instead of all day. Then the host team can use their people they would normally assign to work the tables to do other jobs - weigh ins, entry door, coaches hospitality, bracket sales, awards table, table worker relief, etc. etc. Also, I think if you host a tournament it should exempt you from having to work a table at the other tournaments in your area. So, Storm, Allen, Frisco, Titans, Wylie, etc. wouldn't have to work tables at their own tournament or other North Region Tournaments -- the other 30 teams that haven't/can't make the committment to run a tournament would be required to run the tables. Even if we made this a requirement I am sure you would still see the tournament host teams stepping up during other tournaments to help out.

I see the same people tournament after tournament working the tables, etc. and the same people tournament after tournament sitting on their butts in the stands watching. "New" and "Old" wresting parents that don't volunteer need to figure out that this sport requires a lot of parent involvement and committment. The coaches work hard all day long to coach their teams -- the parents need to start stepping up -- or have your kid play a different sport next year. If you can complain about things not starting on time, etc. then you can volunteer and try to help!

Mama2boty sounds like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and I understand that happens to everyone occasionally so I'll try and be short!
It's pretty bullheaded and stupid to tell ANYONE involved with wrestling they should go play basketball and infer that wrestling doesn't need them or want them. You offered almost nothing constructive to the conversation since almost everyone else is discussing ways to make tournaments and TXUSA wrestling better rather than how people should quit wrestling and play basketball. If you think the people who have contributed to this thread do not volunteer their time you should do your homework.
All sports require A LOT of parent involvement and commitment otherwise they generally don't happen. Why don't you relax and look at what is being discussed with an open mind and quit assuming you are the only one here who volunteers and helps. Pretty presumptuous if you ask me but I have grown to expect that from SOME I have met in the wrestling community.

Jerry Martin

[steelfrog]

In Okie, a whole bunch of parents send their kids with other people; I regularly do that myself, especially to out of state tourneys (thank you to all who have put up with my son's BS on these trips). Clubs probably should arrange it so that kids can meet somewhere and go to the tourneys as a group, at least some of them.